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	<title>Comments on: ECHELON COUSINS: Cape Charles, Meet Chatham</title>
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	<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/</link>
	<description>Your Online Newspaper in Cape Charles, Virginia</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Kuzma, Jr</title>
		<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/#comment-858</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Kuzma, Jr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://capecharleswave.com/?p=2336#comment-858</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Zuidema, two points -- and I must reiterate that as a very part-time resident I have no dog in this hunt one way or the other -:
In your comments regarding the ROI on Council&#039;s Echelon &quot;investment,&quot; you fail to calculate the Service costs -- one fire, an ambulance call a year, additional policing if necessary and your math gets turned on its head.

In regards to Mr. Wendell&#039;s property, in America it matters not a whit what a PRIVATE property owner CHOOSES to do with his property. 

Just so you know, I share your concerns regarding the viability of a Community Center. Equally, I question the viability of selling niche market condo&#039;s (1.5 bedrooms??) in an incredibly DOWN market. Far too often have I seen these &quot;private/public partnerships&quot; turn into publicly funded/maintained housing after the developer fails to sell out.

IMHO, what Council SHOULD do is to shed itself of ALL Mason Avenue properties as this is CC&#039;s SOLE business district.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Zuidema, two points &#8212; and I must reiterate that as a very part-time resident I have no dog in this hunt one way or the other -:<br />
In your comments regarding the ROI on Council&#8217;s Echelon &#8220;investment,&#8221; you fail to calculate the Service costs &#8212; one fire, an ambulance call a year, additional policing if necessary and your math gets turned on its head.</p>
<p>In regards to Mr. Wendell&#8217;s property, in America it matters not a whit what a PRIVATE property owner CHOOSES to do with his property. </p>
<p>Just so you know, I share your concerns regarding the viability of a Community Center. Equally, I question the viability of selling niche market condo&#8217;s (1.5 bedrooms??) in an incredibly DOWN market. Far too often have I seen these &#8220;private/public partnerships&#8221; turn into publicly funded/maintained housing after the developer fails to sell out.</p>
<p>IMHO, what Council SHOULD do is to shed itself of ALL Mason Avenue properties as this is CC&#8217;s SOLE business district.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Breeze</title>
		<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/#comment-832</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Breeze]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 21:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://capecharleswave.com/?p=2336#comment-832</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds like Chatham got a good deal. Did anyone check on this company? Maybe even a google search? I am glad to see the building will be used, might be some neat apartments. If someone else was going to use the old school, why didn&#039;t they? instead of talk about using it. If the citizens of Cape Charles feel the elected officials are not doing their job or are not doing their job correctly, then it is time to remove them. Tell you what, being that some of you have all the answers, why don&#039;t you vote them out of office and get yourself elected.
I am sure there are no easy answers to why this happend or why that happened. I think in the end this will be a good thing for the town and citizens. Be kinda cool to have an apartment in the old school, be better if it was closer to the beach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like Chatham got a good deal. Did anyone check on this company? Maybe even a google search? I am glad to see the building will be used, might be some neat apartments. If someone else was going to use the old school, why didn&#8217;t they? instead of talk about using it. If the citizens of Cape Charles feel the elected officials are not doing their job or are not doing their job correctly, then it is time to remove them. Tell you what, being that some of you have all the answers, why don&#8217;t you vote them out of office and get yourself elected.<br />
I am sure there are no easy answers to why this happend or why that happened. I think in the end this will be a good thing for the town and citizens. Be kinda cool to have an apartment in the old school, be better if it was closer to the beach.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana Lascu</title>
		<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/#comment-822</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dana Lascu]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://capecharleswave.com/?p=2336#comment-822</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Fat living&quot; is not the point: I certainly hope that someone who has a great (or reasonably good) vision and the ability to make it work will be able to have a &quot;fat&quot; outcome, even on my tax dollars.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Fat living&#8221; is not the point: I certainly hope that someone who has a great (or reasonably good) vision and the ability to make it work will be able to have a &#8220;fat&#8221; outcome, even on my tax dollars.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Zuidema</title>
		<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/#comment-821</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Craig Zuidema]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 16:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://capecharleswave.com/?p=2336#comment-821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tax credits are in place for properties like this to try to revitalize older buildings and neighborhoods.  I don&#039;t see that Echelon is doing anything illegal, they are simply taking advantage of existing credits to make this a profitable venture.

The town tax rate is .1828 per $100 of value.  Let&#039;s assume that the 17 apartments are valued in the end at $100k a piece (that isn&#039;t unrealistic given that my 1400 sq ft condo in CC was valued at a much higher amount until I fought the county).  That gives an approximate tax base of $1.7 million, at a rate of .1828 per hundred.  That means that the town receives $3,108 in RE taxes each year.  The county would receive $9,180 in taxes each year.  So instead of selling the property for $10k to a non-profit (who I assume would not pay RE taxes), the town recovers the difference in less than 4 years.  Over a 30 year period, they are ahead by $83k assuming no value change at all.  The county is ahead even further by nearly $300k over 30 years.  

With that said, there are other issues such as the water hookups and insurance proceeds, but would the town have done this for the non-profit or any other bidder as well?  I guess we won&#039;t know that answer.  However, the water hookups are irrelevant.  Those fees earned by the town would not exist if the building wasn&#039;t going to be renovated anyway.  At least moving forward, the town will receive additional fees collected by 17 new apartments helping us all cover the existing cost.

The non-profit wanted a community center.  Who would have staffed the center?  What would the operating costs have been to staff a full-time person (or more than 1) and pay the bills?  I can only assume this would have been at least $75k per year. Would the non-profit be able to fund this kind of ongoing expense?

I live in Va Beach full time and in Cape Charles part time.  My neighborhood in Va Beach alone has more houses than all of Cape Charles and we don&#039;t have our own community center.  Va Beach has great rec centers, but also has the considerable tax base to support them.  I don&#039;t think Cape Charles has the size or economies of scale to support such a center, even if fees were charged.

How long would it have taken the non-profit to get the resources to actually renovate the old school?  Would they ever have had enough funds to build a vibrant community center?  Who knows?

I can say that Mr. Wendell owns a building on Mason Avenue that has been sitting empty for as long as I know.  Perhaps some resources should be put there or in any number of other empty buildings in Cape Charles.  

I can understand the emotional attachment to the Old School, but I don&#039;t see where it makes any financial sense given these two choices.  The council has to look at all sides, and perhaps the whole thing could have been handled better or differently.  And while some Cape Charles residents may want a community center, I just don&#039;t see where it is financially feasible, especially not in this current economic environment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tax credits are in place for properties like this to try to revitalize older buildings and neighborhoods.  I don&#8217;t see that Echelon is doing anything illegal, they are simply taking advantage of existing credits to make this a profitable venture.</p>
<p>The town tax rate is .1828 per $100 of value.  Let&#8217;s assume that the 17 apartments are valued in the end at $100k a piece (that isn&#8217;t unrealistic given that my 1400 sq ft condo in CC was valued at a much higher amount until I fought the county).  That gives an approximate tax base of $1.7 million, at a rate of .1828 per hundred.  That means that the town receives $3,108 in RE taxes each year.  The county would receive $9,180 in taxes each year.  So instead of selling the property for $10k to a non-profit (who I assume would not pay RE taxes), the town recovers the difference in less than 4 years.  Over a 30 year period, they are ahead by $83k assuming no value change at all.  The county is ahead even further by nearly $300k over 30 years.  </p>
<p>With that said, there are other issues such as the water hookups and insurance proceeds, but would the town have done this for the non-profit or any other bidder as well?  I guess we won&#8217;t know that answer.  However, the water hookups are irrelevant.  Those fees earned by the town would not exist if the building wasn&#8217;t going to be renovated anyway.  At least moving forward, the town will receive additional fees collected by 17 new apartments helping us all cover the existing cost.</p>
<p>The non-profit wanted a community center.  Who would have staffed the center?  What would the operating costs have been to staff a full-time person (or more than 1) and pay the bills?  I can only assume this would have been at least $75k per year. Would the non-profit be able to fund this kind of ongoing expense?</p>
<p>I live in Va Beach full time and in Cape Charles part time.  My neighborhood in Va Beach alone has more houses than all of Cape Charles and we don&#8217;t have our own community center.  Va Beach has great rec centers, but also has the considerable tax base to support them.  I don&#8217;t think Cape Charles has the size or economies of scale to support such a center, even if fees were charged.</p>
<p>How long would it have taken the non-profit to get the resources to actually renovate the old school?  Would they ever have had enough funds to build a vibrant community center?  Who knows?</p>
<p>I can say that Mr. Wendell owns a building on Mason Avenue that has been sitting empty for as long as I know.  Perhaps some resources should be put there or in any number of other empty buildings in Cape Charles.  </p>
<p>I can understand the emotional attachment to the Old School, but I don&#8217;t see where it makes any financial sense given these two choices.  The council has to look at all sides, and perhaps the whole thing could have been handled better or differently.  And while some Cape Charles residents may want a community center, I just don&#8217;t see where it is financially feasible, especially not in this current economic environment.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Meyers</title>
		<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/#comment-819</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Meyers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 14:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://capecharleswave.com/?p=2336#comment-819</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Outstanding job by the Wave and staff for both DIGGING and REPORTING. It seems that the Wave is the only serious news source on the Shore. It will be interesting to see if more Cape Charles residents become involved in the local government process now that they have additional background. How did the Echelon finances work out with the Chatham town government? Have local tax, utility bills and associated fees been paid by Echelon when due? What is the current project occupancy rate there?  Did the hoped for demand meet expectations?  And, bottom line, is life in Chatham more pleasant now and have Chatham finances improved as compared to before Echelon introduced themselves to the town? Maybe these are questions that Cape Charles should be asking itself, and documenting, as their path with Echelon merges.

Ms. Bender, you make a great point with your comment: &quot;But these men have figured out how to make a fat living on the backs of taxpayers.” Please do not forget, it is the politicians for whom you vote that enable this “fat living”, aka transfer of our taxes to people who are smart enough or “in the know” to vacuum it up. This money does not come from local real estate or personal property taxes, it comes from those who actually pay taxes to Federal and State governments. If you don’t think this is a good way to use our tax money, consider carefully which candidate you support in each election, starting next month, AND VOTE!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outstanding job by the Wave and staff for both DIGGING and REPORTING. It seems that the Wave is the only serious news source on the Shore. It will be interesting to see if more Cape Charles residents become involved in the local government process now that they have additional background. How did the Echelon finances work out with the Chatham town government? Have local tax, utility bills and associated fees been paid by Echelon when due? What is the current project occupancy rate there?  Did the hoped for demand meet expectations?  And, bottom line, is life in Chatham more pleasant now and have Chatham finances improved as compared to before Echelon introduced themselves to the town? Maybe these are questions that Cape Charles should be asking itself, and documenting, as their path with Echelon merges.</p>
<p>Ms. Bender, you make a great point with your comment: &#8220;But these men have figured out how to make a fat living on the backs of taxpayers.” Please do not forget, it is the politicians for whom you vote that enable this “fat living”, aka transfer of our taxes to people who are smart enough or “in the know” to vacuum it up. This money does not come from local real estate or personal property taxes, it comes from those who actually pay taxes to Federal and State governments. If you don’t think this is a good way to use our tax money, consider carefully which candidate you support in each election, starting next month, AND VOTE!</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah Bender</title>
		<link>https://capecharleswave.com/2012/10/echelon-cousins-cape-charles-meet-chatham/#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deborah Bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 11:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://capecharleswave.com/?p=2336#comment-817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that all Echelon does is run from town to town, county to county, looking for old buildings to &quot;renovate&quot; with the government&#039;s money!  It&#039;s a shame our little town never even checked them out.  All we were told is that &quot;these men are men of honor.&quot;  But these men have figured out how to make a fat living on the backs of taxpayers.  From all that I have read about their little business, Cape Charles has been the stupidest in that we have lowered the hookup fees by 3/4, given them the $41,000 in insurance money, given them the basketball court and the parking lot for the park &amp; playground, and pretty well upset half the Historic District residents.  We don&#039;t want apartments overlooking the playground and park. There are 600 voters in this town and we have more that 300 signatures on the petition. NO APARTMENTS!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that all Echelon does is run from town to town, county to county, looking for old buildings to &#8220;renovate&#8221; with the government&#8217;s money!  It&#8217;s a shame our little town never even checked them out.  All we were told is that &#8220;these men are men of honor.&#8221;  But these men have figured out how to make a fat living on the backs of taxpayers.  From all that I have read about their little business, Cape Charles has been the stupidest in that we have lowered the hookup fees by 3/4, given them the $41,000 in insurance money, given them the basketball court and the parking lot for the park &amp; playground, and pretty well upset half the Historic District residents.  We don&#8217;t want apartments overlooking the playground and park. There are 600 voters in this town and we have more that 300 signatures on the petition. NO APARTMENTS!</p>
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