Comments on: #3 Story SHORE THING: Bay Creek Can Blame Cape Charles

By: Bob Neighoff

Bob Neighoff — Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:59:56 +0000

Anyone know the details about the Marina, restaurant, and shops being sold recently?

Type AQUA in the search box at the top right-hand corner of the page. — EDITOR

By: Carol Habel

Carol Habel — Sun, 02 Dec 2012 00:34:46 +0000

WOW …. How did insulting Cheriton become a part of this debate. Did we do something over here?

You are right — a previous comment had a gratuitous reference that should not have been published. It has been deleted. –EDITOR

By: Geneva Smith

Geneva Smith — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:37:58 +0000

I have been coming to Cape Charles for over 30 years and owned two houses
and NEVER heard of a crack house town. Real estate overpriced and no jobs, that is the problem.

By: Regina Aleksiewicz

Regina Aleksiewicz — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:33:29 +0000

Read your comment, Deborah, about the perceived ‘competition” between the old town harbor and Bay Creek harbor. I really don’t want to believe the town improved the harbor with the idea to compete with Bay Creek’s harbor. I want to think it was improved because it needed to be done and to complement each other. I hope I am not wrong. Both the old town and Bay Creek of Cape Charles have always had so much potential and it is a shame that it can’t all be done at once – but it will happen as long as people have patience and work together, amicably. I want to believe that the whole community of Cape Charles will keep improving for all of us. The two may offer different perspectives but it must coexist as one or the whole ship goes down – We must come together because we all love Cape Charles and would not be here otherwise.

By: Deborah Bender

Deborah Bender — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:43:28 +0000

Well this article sure has raised some eyebrows to say the least. I totally agree that if not for Bay Creek this town might not have progressed the way that it has. Because of all the people that came here to see Bay Creek, many of the homes in the historic district have been renovated and the entire town has improved. When I moved to this area in 1976 I lived “up the road”. I moved to the Cape Charles area almost 20 years ago and the town was in terrible shape. Empty storefronts and dilapidated homes were everywhere. The town now has many eateries, Bed & Breakfasts, and lots of cute shops. I had a business in town myself, “Scarlett’s Closet”, as many reading this article will recall, and I did very well during the town’s little “boom”. I did see the writing on the wall and sold before the “boom” flopped.

It is sad that the people that bought property and homes are struggling to keep them. The economy is bad and it is hard times. Many people bought property with the plan on selling at a profit and that didn’t happen for them. Investments don’t always pan out.

I do feel that the town improved the harbor to compete with Bay Creek’s marina and that was wrong. If I had a big boat and wanted a safe place to keep my boat I would choose Bay Creek’s Marina. It is a much safer place as far as the action of the water goes.

Some of the comments here are slamming the Wave and here I will say that you people are just wrong. This online newspaper is great. It keeps the people in town aware of everything that is going on. Good or bad it is news that many would not know about if not for the Wave. If you people that are putting down the Wave don’t like the articles don’t read it. Thank you for the Wave!

By: Gordon Campbell

Gordon Campbell — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 00:11:39 +0000

1. Two publicly available links is not research. Research leads to new facts and discoveries.
2.You are confusing readers when you refer to the various entities as Bay Creek. While you noted this, there is the Marina area, controlled by Mr. Foster, Bay Creek South whose majority owner is Keyser/Sinclair, and the HOA for Bay Creek. All are separate entities. So while the two marinas compete for business it has nothing to do with the HOA or Keyser. If you want to re-word your story and say the town is sucking the lifeblood out of the marina I might not argue. And a lot of what is going on there is possibly due to the legal actions. Now that might make an interesting story.
3. Again, it is not dramatic in light of the real estate market and the unique situation for that particular property. Also, at the local level the bubble is still popping. I say it is the lack of good comps that has kept prices high. Price a home fairly and it sells quickly.
4. I still don’t see how Bay Creek (HOA or Keyser) is a victim.
5. You took my statement out of context. I said “in light of the national real estate market. I think Bay Creek properties have held up fairly well, a testament to the fantastic infrastructure here.”
6. The HOA common areas are maintained through dues, no different from any HOA. Likewise the town does not maintain your yard.
“Who will pay for restoration of the beaches at Marina Village and Bayside Village?” The respective owners.
“Are you sure they are insured?” No and I don’t really care, but Bay Creek South has begun if not finished repairing the beach by the golf course (The beach is not HOA property). Two massive dump trucks have made hundreds of trips down the beach with fill. Lets see if FEMA or the town could ever work that fast! Three years later and I’m still waiting for a hole to get filled on Strawberry St. I’ll take an HOA over a municipal govt any day.
“What happens when the private roads become pot-holed?” They get paved and owners get assessed if there is no money. No different than local taxes. Did you notice the 10% increase in your County taxes?
7. Comparing NJ is germane. Sandy did not “wreck havoc” here at all, but it did in NJ. $300,000 of sand erosion is no big deal for a golf course that costs a million a hole to construct.
8. The Virginia Pilot did not draw any conclusion when they published the price Keyser paid for Bay Creek South. With your flippant “says a lot right there” comment you are trying to infer that Keyser paid way too much for the property. You don’t know what you are talking about.
9. My comment was for you to stop complaining. Nobody likes sewage plants, but it is not leaving anytime soon.
10. “to illustrate some of the serious financial straits at Bay Creek (fact)” Sorry, you failed at that. Keyser/Sinclair are in great financial health and are here for the long haul, the HOA has a balanced budget and the grounds here are kept immaculate (something that cannot be said for the town proper), and hopefully Mr. Foster is dealing with his problems over at the marina area.

P.S. You shed very little light on the $5 million beach club that is under construction. If it is anything like the infrastructure that Foster has already put in place it is going to be a stunning place. Also, there are some other minor infrastructure improvements going on in Bayside Village, an area that, mark my word, will boom soon. And you mentioned the one home that is under construction in Bay Creek — it will be the most beautiful home within Cape Charles. You said “things have gone very badly wrong at Bay Creek,” maybe you should reconsider that statement.

GEORGE RESPONDS: All right, you have successfully exhausted me. But just one thing — you state that legal actions at the Bay Creek marina might make an interesting story. Knowledge is power, and the purpose of the Wave is as a sounding board for our little town. Word of mouth is the traditional local means of communication, and it has its usefulness. But in our electronic age, and especially with so many part-time residents, Cape Charles needs an independent online presence. Hence the Wave. Please consider sharing your knowledge and writing skills by writing for the Wave — not to benefit the Wave, but to benefit your community.

By: Kathleen Mullen

Kathleen Mullen — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 21:11:51 +0000

I agree with Regina. Since I do not have property at either area mentioned I found the article to be a great resource to explain to a “come here” what happened before I arrived. Oddly enough I drove through Bay Creek yesterday and was shocked at all the emptiness. I had no idea that so much remained undeveloped. Had it not been for the Wave article, I would not have been able to logically understand why. I appreciate the work that goes into producing the Wave and if I felt I could write an article as well as George Southern, I’d be the first to volunteer. He is genuine when he asks for local participation so if anyone is so inclined, please contribute!

By: Gordon Campbell

Gordon Campbell — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:43:45 +0000

“The reinvigorated Town of Cape Charles is sucking the lifeblood out of Bay Creek.” How so? Let’s look at some of the examples you provided.

“Old Cape Charles has another leg up on Bay Creek – the ability to provide historic rehabilitation tax credits. Buy an old house for a song, gut it, and qualify for up to a 45 percent tax credit against the total rehab cost.” And how does that make Bay Creek a “victim”? The restorative tax credits come with costs, constraints, regulations and guidelines. Working within a “This Old House” type restoration might not be for everyone, just as living within a gated community might not be for all. Also, I believe a beautiful town benefits Bay Creek, and I’m sure any Realtor would agree.

“The house at 122 Creekside Lane tells a dramatic story (pictured at top of story): Listed for $1,495,000 last November, the asking price has fallen to $995,000. “ I guess you forgot the Bay Ave. homes that were listed in the multi-millions and misrepresented as waterfront properties, one home was listed for $3.6 million only to sell for well below $1 million. A drop from $1.5 to $1 million is not “dramatic” in light of the national real estate market. I think Bay Creek properties have held up fairly well, a testament to the fantastic infrastructure here.

“The first chink in the armor appeared after the Romeos opened Cape Charles Coffee House downtown. Suddenly the clientele at the Bay Creek coffee shop switched loyalties to a more convenient, more inviting locale, and the Bay Creek coffee shop shut down. “ What are you talking about? Fish Heads Cafe was not a coffee shop and was not closed due to “switched loyalties”. I was a regular at Fish Heads and am a regular at the CCCH, two different places.

“More recently, the Town expanded what had been its commercial harbor to become a tourist destination “ Again, how does that make Bay Creek a victim? You like looking at the glass half empty, I guess I’m just more optimistic and believe that a vibrant tourist destination floats all boats.

“The irony is that Bay Creek taxpayers are subsidizing Town facilities competing against their full-rate private operations. “ What irony? Like all Cape Charles residents, Bay Creek homeowners also are provided the same town amenities and chose to live in Bay Creek. You must get upset when a Cheriton resident uses Cape Charles facilities for free! Also, the Harbor is, or will soon be, a cash flow positive operation.

“All the while, Bay Creek residents pay town taxes at full rate, while receiving only a portion of town services.” Again, all Bay Creek residents have full use of every service that the town provides, sewer, water, trash, beach, harbor, park, etc.

“Bay Creek property owners increasingly are worried about their properties’ future “ Most are very content, some, like myself, are bullish on the future of Bay Creek and the town. But show me an HOA that does not have concerned homeowners.

“And just when nobody needed any more bad news, Sandy came to town, wreaking havoc with Bay Creek’s golf courses “ The courses are privately owned and have nothing to do with the HOA. And I would not call it “wrecking havoc”, have you seen the NJ coastline? That’s where Sandy wrecked havoc. While the town might have FEMA, private entities have insurance.

“The reality is that, in a gated community, you just keep on paying. “ The reality is, in any community you just keep on paying!

“Adding insult to injury, some would say, was the Town’s decision to build the new sewer treatment plant on the road to Bay Creek “ Oh Please! Give it a break!

Lastly, “Sinclair subsidiary Keyser Capital paid $35 million for the first 50 percent of the golf course side of Bay Creek, and then a year later obtained an additional 25 percent for only $5 million more. That says a lot right there. “ Exactly what does it say? Unless you are privy to the structure of SBGI’s investment your comment “says a lot right there”, does not say anything.

By the way, there are 42 homes for sale in the Cape Charles Incorporated area and 28 homes for sale throughout all the Bay Creek Neighborhoods. That simple statistic does not seem to support your slant.

This was a lousy attempt at journalism. Like others have commented, what was the purpose of this article? To the reader it just looks like an attempt to take a cheap shot at the Bay Creek development, creating false impressions.. I have lived in town and now live in Bay Creek, loved the town living and now love it in Bay Creek. Everybody has an opinion but next time leave out the drama and innuendos and do a little research.

GEORGE SOUTHERN RESPONDS: Thank you (I think) for your lengthy comment. And yes, I have a rebuttal:

1. Although the story contains my opinions (and was presented as such – not as straight reporting) – it did reflect considerable research, and two links are included that support some of the statements made.

2. When Bay Creek built a marina for pleasure boats with adjoining restaurant, they had no idea that the Town would become a competitor. If the Town Harbor is “self-sustaining,” it only means that income meets operating expenses, and maybe or maybe not the cost of recent improvements. It does not include the value of the harbor itself, or the fact that the Town pays no tax on the property. Bay Creek, on the other hand, has to pay a mortgage on all its property plus county and town taxes. The rising tide failed to float either Marina Village Shops or Fish Heads Café (and since café means coffee, you should cut me some slack for calling it a coffee house).

3. The “dramatic” case of 122 Creekside Lane is meaningful because it’s new news: the asking price fell by 1/3 in the last year. Your examples are of bubble vs. post-bubble prices.

4. The story did not suggest that buying an old house to restore is “better” than buying a new house in Bay Creek. The story did note an enormous tax advantage in doing so – and wealthy investors are usually very savvy about taxes. The story further noted the impressive number of homes being restored in the Historic District vs. the one house a year being built in Bay Creek.

5. Please ask a Realtor to disabuse you of your notion that Bay Creek property prices “have held up fairly well.” Or go to Zillow.com.

6. While Bay Creekers of course have full use of Town facilities, the Town does not spend funds to maintain the general-access areas of Bay Creek. I pointed out streets and sidewalks as two examples. Sandy really tore up the beaches. My tax dollars will restore the public beach. Who will pay for restoration of the beaches at Marina Village and Bayside Village? Are you sure they are insured? Have you researched that? Did you read the Bay Creek Reserve Study contained in the link I provided? As a homeowner, you should. What happens when the private roads become pot-holed?

7. What Sandy did in New Jersey is not germane. The story concerns what Sandy did here, and the fact is that Sandy took out a sizable section of beach and bluff at the Nicklaus course, including the golf cart path. Have you seen it? Did you see the photo in the Wave?

8. Keyser Capital paid $35 million for 50 percent of Bay Creek South. A year later Keyser purchased an additional 25 percent for $5 million. That seems significant to me and it seemed significant to the Virginian-Pilot, which is where I got the information. If it means nothing to you, you are in denial.

9. “Some would say” that building the sewer plant on the road to Bay Creek was an insult. You obviously are not among those “some.”

10. So what was the “purpose” of my article? A) to illustrate some of the serious financial straits at Bay Creek (fact) and B) to suggest that taxpayer-supported government competition was adding to Bay Creek’s woes (opinion).

And finally, a disclaimer: I love Bay Creek. Everything about it — from the gardening and landscaping, to the marina, to the jellybean beach houses, to the wonderful Aqua Restaurant, to the stunning golf courses – is absolutely first-class. Bay Creek is a wonderful asset to Cape Charles. But that doesn’t change its financial condition.

Please don’t shoot the messenger!

By: Regina Aleksiewicz

Regina Aleksiewicz — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 18:14:17 +0000

Thank goodness for the Cape Charles Wave! At least it is information, whether good or bad. Some people in Cape Charles would like to sweep everything bad under the rug but you never get things done if you constantly do that. The readers are intelligent enough to make their own decision about the content. I look forward to reading the articles every day along with all the comments.

By: David Gay

David Gay — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:10:42 +0000

I don’t see how presenting the facts is negative. Some people in town want to be informed, while others are happy to be disengaged. No matter what you write these days somebody is going to take offense. It’s not just a Shore thing. Look at our national political situation. If we don’t talk about our problems how are we ever going to solve them. I hope the Wave continues to be a vibrant force in our community to educate and inform. We should embrace the Wave as an open forum for sharing ideas and opinions in a healthy way rather than depend on an unreliable and often inaccurate gossip mill.